Deb Ellinger, Executive Director of  Elli’s House, shares how she went from arresting women in forced prostitution to serving them. From, “I’m not the right person for this.” to “We now have three safe houses for women who want out of forced prostitution.” this episode tells all (including what Deb did when a pimp asked her for help). Grab the tissues, your pom-poms (for cheering), and a friend. After this episode, you’ll be asking how YOU can love your community. 

Listen here or read the transcript below.

Abigail Taylor:
Hey, y’all, it’s Abigail. Are you struggling with what your church or nonprofit will look like going forward, or how to start a church or nonprofit that lasts and makes an impact? We, at FiveTwo, have the solution. We are taking our proven and tested StartNew training digital, and not just because of COVID. By God’s grace, we started this project last fall. Our training is like none other, it’s Mother Teresa meets a friendly Mark Cuban, combining rich theological truths with sound startup business principles. Now, it’s more affordable and accessible than ever before. Registration opens this fall, but we’re offering a sneak peek to you, as a podcast listener. Check out startnewtraining.com for a preview of one of the three ways you can experience StartNew. We’ll be adding the other two ways this fall, so be on the lookout. We’re super excited about it and would love your feedback. Go to startnewtraining.com and check it out.

Abigail Taylor:
Welcome to the StartNew podcast, where we help you love your community and start great ministries that reach it. My name is Abigail Taylor.

Bill Woolsey:
And I’m Bill Woolsey. We’re part of the leadership team of FiveTwo Network, and we’ll be your hosts. Let’s get started.

Bill Woolsey:
Hey, listeners. Today’s guest is a former Detroit police officer and executive director of Elli’s House, Deb Ellinger. Welcome, Deb.

Deb Ellinger:
Thanks, Bill. Thanks for having me.

Bill Woolsey:
We are just so, so excited. I can’t tell you, our staff, this morning, we were going around through prayer time and just encouraging one another, and Michael Nowicki, who oversees our StartNew training and everything now, he said, “Guys, if you ever get down or you ever wonder if what we’re doing is worth it, you need to listen to the interview and watch the video between Chris Kopka and Deb Ellinger,” which is part of our curriculum for our new stuff online. He said, “It is just amazing.”

Deb Ellinger:
I enjoyed my time with him so much.

Bill Woolsey:
Oh, he’s a hoot and a half.

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah.

Bill Woolsey:
I have known you for a little over four years, and to watch the journey you’ve been on in the ministry that you started, it’s been a great joy to have walked alongside of you. Why don’t we just dig in and we’ll throw stories all in as we go, but tell us about your ministry so everyone understands what Elli’s House is.

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah. We do a couple different things. We have a street outreach program on the east side of Detroit. What that looks like is we take out a white van, there’s about four or five of us in the van, we go out and talk to women that are in forced prostitution. Then that turned into talking to men that were either their pimps or their drug dealers. We give them food, we give them hygiene. We just really love them where they’re at. We’ll give them clothes. Basically any supplies that they need, depending on the season, we provide it for them. Then that turned into if they need to go to doctor’s appointments, I’ll pick them up. They have my phone number, the same phone number that you would have, Bill, I give them and they can call me. We’ll basically help them do anything that they need help to do. I would love if everyone was able to get off the street, but that’s just not the reality of what we do, so we’ve just committed to loving people where they’re at and then they see Jesus in that. That’s been an awesome experience.

Deb Ellinger:
Then we now have three houses, we had-

Bill Woolsey:
Wow.

Deb Ellinger:
I know, isn’t that crazy?

Abigail Taylor:
It’s crazy.

Deb Ellinger:
I know, I know. We just had another house donated to us, and so that will be open the first week of November. Then we have another house where we have two women. We provide two years, free rent. You live there for two years and we’re going to all your mental health, all your medical, life skills. We’re going to help you get job training or go to college, if that’s what your goals are, with the end goal being that you will be self-sufficient. We’re going to help navigate that road with you, and then you would be living on your own, but we would always have a relationship. We want you to eventually come back and mentor or be volunteering in our program to love on other women.

Bill Woolsey:
That’s just awesome. I had not heard you now have three houses. I’m almost like tears, because I remember way, way back when, it’s been a little over four years. You’re the story I tell, when you said something along the lines of, “Nobody’s going to want to give to this. I don’t know where we’re going to get the money. Nobody’s going to want to give to this.” I remember Kopka and I and Johnathan Wright saying, “No, Deb. Look, this is very compelling and you just need to follow through and stick with it.” Are you as amazed as I’m sure others around you might be over where you are now?

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah, totally amazed. My biggest insecurity, I mean, you know, was would I get people to love what we do and be passionate about what we do enough to give to it. We’ve had two houses donated to us, and so I think that’s pretty clear in saying, “Yep, you’re onto something. Keep going.”

Bill Woolsey:
Tell us from the beginning, because I know your story, but I would love for others to hear it, what led you to start this particular nonprofit and emphasis?

Deb Ellinger:
When I worked at the police department, we investigated sex crimes for a while. That really laid heavy on my heart for a lot of years, just seeing the brokenness and just learning about actually brokenness on both sides, the victim and the person who’s the predator. There’s just so much brokenness. I just took all that training and I thought what a gift it would be to love a group of people that most people view as difficult or unlovable or dirty or insert any adjective that you want, what a great opportunity it would be just for them to be loved, because honestly, we’re all that, we’re all dirty and unlovable at times. I took all of that knowledge and all of that information and then was just able to use it on the street.

Deb Ellinger:
I think it’s kind of funny how God works, because the people that I used to arrest, the drug dealers, the women who are in prostitution, are now the people that I love and advocate for when police are coming up, talking to them. It’s kind of ironic.

Bill Woolsey:
Major ironic. I remember, too, when you first told us, this was probably about a year ago, maybe a year and a half ago, and your passion is so obvious and you are a very articulate lady and you have the street smarts, you’ve got this wonderful combination, but your passion for these women and your heart that goes out to them, but then when you said, “Well, we also are ministering to their pimps,” and every guy in the room was like, “Get out.” Because your passion is so true and Jesus’ love in you is so true that you just are saying, “Hey, we’re going to love people to change,” in essence.

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah, and that’s exactly what we’ve done. Honestly, it’s been really beautiful to see the change in the community among the men and the women who live on the streets, but then people who actually reside in that community, I mean, just to see how it has changed the view of people who are homeless and walking around the street by people who live in the community. Then just to be able to love those men, because honestly, those men have trauma that’s actually very so similar to the women. It involves a lot of sexual abuse, dysfunction at home, foster care, those types of things, the men also experienced.

Deb Ellinger:
I don’t know, God really put it on my heart to do it. I’ll tell you though, it wasn’t what I wanted to do. That was not any way in my heart, God really had to change my heart to do that.

Bill Woolsey:
As you say that, that’s what strikes me, and I’m not sure even how to articulate this, but today, there’s such a talk of victim and then you used the word predator, I had not thought about that word but I think it’s probably a very accurate word, but there’s such a dividing line there and you’re either on one side or you’re on the other.

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah.

Bill Woolsey:
You have this beautiful ability to not approach in anger, or maybe anger isn’t the right, hatred, so there’s not this approach in hatred. Talk about how you got there. You said God put that in your heart, but was there some process, or how’d you arrive there?

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah. Actually, we have one guy that we’ve been working with for it’ll be 13 months, it’s 13 months this month. We lost a girl last August, August 2019, she was murdered in a drug house. This gentleman, who his street name is Sarge, he was there when it happened. He was a suspect, he got called in. There was several girls that we had worked with that had got called in to talk to the police. Homicide had contacted me. I was able to navigate the process with Sarge, but with this woman who had killed Kayla, her family. Then it was during that time that Sarge said, “I want help and everybody says you’re the person that can get it for me.” I said, “Well, I haven’t really done this with men, but let me see what I can figure out.”

Deb Ellinger:
So we did, we just figured out where we could take men. We took him to treatment for five days. He had five days between his treatment program and his three quarter housing program. He spent five days with my family. We took him to dinner, to lunch, to church.

Bill Woolsey:
Wow.

Deb Ellinger:
He spent five days with us so that he would not be on the streets for those five days. I’ll tell you what, that guy is going to be a testimony. He’s going to change the world. He will change the world. He’s well spoken, he was in the military, he’s committed to being better. We just had dinner with them the other night and I’m like, “Dude, you’re the reason why I even talked to men. You honestly are the reason why I even engage in conversation, because you’re worth it. You’re worth it and so are they.” He’s really what changed my mind.

Abigail Taylor:
Wow.

Bill Woolsey:
Abigail, were you going to say something?

Abigail Taylor:
Well, I was just going to say, I mean, when I thought about him being in your home, how was that? That was where my mind went. I mean, do you have kids at home?

Deb Ellinger:
I don’t that everybody do this, it is a big [inaudible 00:11:19], but he actually came our kid’s graduation party. There is something unique and different about him. If you were to have a conversation with him, you would go, “Wow, this guy is extremely articulate. He’s very bright. He has just had a really rough go of life.” Anytime he is ever been with us, you would never even know. Somebody asked him at the grad party, they were like, “How do you know the Ellingers?” “Oh, I was the drug dealer that Deb helped,” that’s what he’ll tell people, like, “I was the drug dealer she helped.” People are like, “No, really.” He’s like, “No, really, I am. That’s me, I’m that guy.” I don’t know. I just thought God was saying take a chance and so we took a chance, and he is a real big part of our life now.

Bill Woolsey:
One of the things that we talk about in our training, and I don’t know if we had articulated it this well when you were going through it, Deb, because you were in the, gosh, I think the second, just the second group that went through.

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah, first or second. We were right the beginning.

Bill Woolsey:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right in the beginning. But how hospitality is such a great way to help people feel like they belong, and that when you open up your home, you open up your family, your life to somebody, that just oftentimes it profoundly changes their whole, like, “Are you for real?” kind of thing. For you and your family to do that had to make a huge impact on him.

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah, I really think it did. He loves our family like it’s his family. Just he’ll text me every morning his journal entry for the day, he feels like he’s accountable to me to do that. I think part of it was just the relationship that we willing to build with him, despite the sin and despite the flaws. I think that’s part of what attracts him to keep coming back, is that we’ve always just committed to meeting him where he is at, no strings attached. If he relapses, he always knows, we will always love you, we’ll take you back, we’ll try it again, we’ll do it again. There’s really literally no strings attached to our relationship.

Bill Woolsey:
Wow.

Abigail Taylor:
That’s awesome. You would say your core customer, because whenever you first started you were starting thinking we’re here to help the girls on the streets, women in forced prostitution, like you said, and you arrived at that through your work as a cop previously, you had a heart for those girls, but then now it sounds like your core customer has expanded in a lot of ways.

Deb Ellinger:
It really has. That’s why when I was reading the question, like, “Ooh, it’s kind of changed since we started,” because we include everybody. Anyone on the street who’s homeless and struggles with addiction, we’re going to help provide services and resources too.

Bill Woolsey:
Your homes though, are your homes specifically for forced prostitution?

Deb Ellinger:
Yes, great point, yep. Our homes, we only house women. At least right now, I can’t see myself housing men. The need is so great for women right now that I think that’s where we’ll probably land and stay.

Bill Woolsey:
Really, you evolved in a sense. It sounds like, I guess for those listening, when we say core customer, we’re like the sweet spot, this is the bullseye, this is really who you believe Jesus is calling you to reach if everything else fell away, that still sounds like it’s those women in forced prostitution, but to be true to Jesus, to be true to his calling on you, you can’t treat those around that person with disdain, you’re called to love them too and to help that change.

Deb Ellinger:
Wow. That was really well said, Bill.

Bill Woolsey:
Well, no, that was what you said to us exactly.

Deb Ellinger:
That was so good.

Abigail Taylor:
You said it.

Bill Woolsey:
That’s what you said, so anyway.

Deb Ellinger:
You said it really well. I was like, “Wow, that’s great.” Yeah, that’s that’s it.

Bill Woolsey:
Deb, what were the two to three, because we want people to understand this, to get this, what were the two to three biggest struggles you had in starting your own nonprofit, especially those that you didn’t see coming?

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah. Well, one for me, my struggle was just would anyone actually believe in this. That was in my mind. I’m doing a ton of research and Bible studies right now on identity, and I look back and I think because my identity was really in what I was doing, whatever that looked like. Whether I was working at church or I was being a mom or being a wife, my identity was in that, instead of just looking and saying, “God’s called me to do this, just get up and do it and he’s going to figure it out.” It took me a little bit longer to get there, completely get there. I think the struggle was would anyone really actually buy into this and agree with it and then want to help support it.

Deb Ellinger:
I think the other part, too, is just finding people that I can trust to walk alongside of me, to do it with me, because I don’t like to bring people into the van to go on outreach with me because they just want to see what’s going on, right? This is not-

Bill Woolsey:
Right, right, not a show and tell.

Deb Ellinger:
This is not a show and tell. I don’t want people to come alongside of me who are looking to get service hours for something, this is just not that kind of thing. I want people to be passionate and really actually have an unconditional love for people, because that is what you need to do what we do. Finding people to be able to do that, I had to sift through some people that were doing it either for their self-motivation or just because they felt like, “Well, I should do something so I’ll do this.” Finding people that are passionate about helping this group of people has been challenging because people don’t want to go on the streets of Detroit, people don’t want to talk to women who are selling sex or doing drugs. It’s just not something people want. I get that, I don’t think it’s for everybody, but I think those were actually two of the bigger challenges for us.

Bill Woolsey:
I know that first one you mentioned was the first time you and I, you called me on a Sunday night, we were supposed to start on Thursday night, and you called and said you were backing out because you just didn’t think this thing was going to work. By the grace of God, you did not back out. When I mention you in talks, I always say, if there’s ever anyone you should not call to tell, you should not call me.

Deb Ellinger:
I know.

Bill Woolsey:
Because I will convince you, one way or the other I’m going to convince you. Praise God, you did. You mentioned this identity, and I love how you put it into perspective because at times I think that’s oversold in the sense that people say, “Well, my identity is in Jesus, but the other stuff’s not important.” The other stuff is very important, but it’s the identity in Jesus that fuels everything else and keeps you going when it’s really hard, and it’s been really hard.

Deb Ellinger:
Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It’s been how I’m grounded in him and who he says I am. Whatever happens, good and bad, I always can come back to him. I think that actually our ministry has grown that part of my faith, because I’ve had to do nothing but depend on God. We had nothing as a family to start out, it wasn’t like we’re wealthy people. We don’t have those kinds of resources and so I’ve really had to depend and lean on God this entire process. That, I think, has really helped me be grounded in who I am.

Abigail Taylor:
Did you ever think it wasn’t going to work?

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah. When we purchased our first house and we got our first amount of money that we could do something with, we purchased this house, it’s a four-unit apartment complex with eight bedrooms, and I had all these grand ideas. Then we purchased it and we were like, “What do we do now? Where’s the rest of the money going to come from? How do we get work started?” and all these questions. I was like, “I don’t know if I can do this,” because it seemed so gigantic to me at the time to be able to reconstruct a small apartment complex and then house girls and create programs.

Deb Ellinger:
It was during that time that actually this random lady calls me and says, “I have a house to give you.” It was a smaller house and it was a two-bedroom house and it needed less work, and so I was like, “Well, maybe this is where we’re supposed to start.” Then it became pretty clear to me that God was saying start small and do small with excellence. Do the two women that you have or you get and do it with excellence, and then go from there, grow your program from there. I’ve always just stuck with that.

Bill Woolsey:
I want people to hear too on this, you and your family didn’t have a lot of money. The whole thing of the resources, where are the resources going to come from, which is what we get all the time, and we just encourage you that Jesus is going to provide and you need to trust that if it’s of him, he will make it happen. You have been a testimony to that too, where literally things have been provided for you that you had no clue how they were going to be provided.

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah, for sure. I mean, just to give your audience a little bit of background. We lost our house in foreclosure and we were renting a house. It was at that time, when we were renting a house that actually was relatively close to the city, that God was like, “Oh, you’re going to buy a house and you’re going to house women from the city that need help.” I was like, “What?” I mean, we literally had lost everything, so that was part of my struggle. My struggle was we really didn’t have the resources and we didn’t have the things. Then literally God did provide. I mean, the abundance of what he’s provided in the last four years, if anyone out there is a nonbeliever, I feel like our story that God has given us is really is just an affirmation that God exists.

Bill Woolsey:
Deb, how would you say your relationship with Jesus, your trust in Jesus, how has that grown, how has that matured in this whole journey?

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah, unbelievable. I mean, I was raised in the Church, but I wouldn’t say growing up I had a relationship with Jesus. I knew who Jesus was, I went to a Christian school, those kinds of things, we go to a great church and I started following Jesus more deeply after we got married, but I think this has honestly increased my faith so much that my anxiety is less, my worry is less, because I have seen him provide for us in ways that would have just blown my mind and everyone else’s mind.

Bill Woolsey:
Wow.

Deb Ellinger:
Every day, it’s a constant reminder that he has it. I just can’t worry about this or my family or any other things because he has clearly provided and been very clear about the path we’re supposed to take.

Abigail Taylor:
All right. What’s the most astounding way that Jesus has provided for you [crosstalk 00:23:25]?

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah. We belong to a school district called Troy Athens School District, and they have a charity week every year. We had applied, the very first year we became a 501 C3, we applied. We made it to the final four, we presented what we did and we didn’t win. Then the second year we automatically made it to the final four and still didn’t win. Then the third year, which was my third daughter’s last year, so it was going to be her last year there, she came home from school and she said, “You have to apply for charity week. Today is the last day.” I said, “Oh, I cannot handle rejection of third time.” I just don’t do well with that. She was like, “Please, could you please? It’s my senior year, it would be so great if Elli’s House won,” and I was like, “Fine, I’ll fill it out.”

Deb Ellinger:
We end up being the charity. Troy Athens does charity week like no one ever does charity week at any high school, they always raise triple digits, they always have raised triple digits. They basically spend an entire week raising money for your organization. They don’t do school, they have all kinds of contests, they have all kinds of shows, after school programs, things during the day, they have things at restaurants. It’s insane. This year they raised the most money that they had ever raised, which was $180,000.

Bill Woolsey:
For Elli’s House?

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah.

Bill Woolsey:
That is so awesome.

Deb Ellinger:
Isn’t that crazy? I know.

Bill Woolsey:
Oh, that is incredible.

Deb Ellinger:
I know.

Bill Woolsey:
That’s incredible.

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah, so that it was an amazing week. We were able to be in the school all week and just build relationship. So many of the kids there now still serve with us and still do things for us and are always checking in with us. It was just a great community thing as well, to build relationship and just love on people at the school and their families.

Bill Woolsey:
Right. It just, again, just reinforces the feeding of the 5,000. The food comes from the community, not from the Church. You and your family didn’t bring this money, the community literally is funding the ministry that Jesus has called you to do, which is just miraculous. 180,000, that is so incredible, Deb.

Deb Ellinger:
It’s insane, yeah, it’s insane. We have been so incredibly blessed by the community and the school district. It’s been amazing.

Bill Woolsey:
Wow, wow. What would you tell somebody, I could guess what you would tell somebody, but what would you tell somebody who was thinking about, “I’ve had this cause on my heart, I’ve been feeling in this way,” what are some steps you’d tell them maybe to take or some pointers?

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah. First I would say find that person or that church that’s going to support you. My church really supported us. When I talked to Pastor Joe about my idea, he was totally onboard and supportive right from the beginning. Then they really have walked alongside of me during that whole thing and he’s mentored me. I would encourage people to make sure you’re surrounded by people that are going to help you get through the process. Then I would encourage you to do what it is that you’re passionate about. What is it that breaks your heart, what is it that stands out to you that says this needs to have somebody speak up for it, what is the cause that you need to speak up for somebody who doesn’t have a voice? I would say those are two really important things.

Bill Woolsey:
Excellent, yeah. Joe Casiglia is the bomb, so we’ll give a shout out to him at Faith Troy.

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah. He’s on our board now, so I have to give him a shout out.

Bill Woolsey:
I see, I see. One wrap, what has brought you the most joy that saw you through? Can you give us one, maybe two if you can’t do just one, but is there a particular story or a particular happening that you just thought, this is why?

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah. I would say the Sarge story. Watching him and doing life with him now, which is what we do, has actually inspired me the days that I feel like I can’t do it today because my heart is so broken for something that’s happened.

Deb Ellinger:
Then I would actually say one of the very first women that we helped, I know she wouldn’t want me to say her name, but she was a woman that we met on the street. We were relatively new in doing this, I think we had been on the streets about a year, but we were starting to get to know people and see people. When we pulled up on her, she did not look like she belonged there. She looked like she had new clothes on, she had looked like she had just gotten out of the shower, she was a little bit older. We continued to pursue her every time we’d see her and she really didn’t want anything to do with us.

Deb Ellinger:
Then after about four weeks, we learned that she had met this guy on a dating app and she had just recently lost her house in foreclosure and her husband had left her. She had a job prior to that, she lost her job as well. She was in a really vulnerable state, she met this guy online, he said he would provide a house for her and a job for her. He picked her up and she ended up working on the streets and living in an abandoned house where they had no electricity and no water. She lived like that for about six weeks.

Deb Ellinger:
On the fourth week, we were able to actually start to really develop a relationship with her, she started to share a little bit more with us. On the fifth week, we were able to actually pick her up and get her to a facility. Halfway through that week, she ended up leaving to come back to him. I found her again, same place she was, and got her to go back to the facility. Now she is living on her own in an apartment and thriving. She’s doing amazing. She texts me probably once a week just with pictures of her life and things that are going on.

Deb Ellinger:
We actually had rescued a dog from a drug house, because we do dogs too, why not?

Bill Woolsey:
Why not?

Deb Ellinger:
These girls are like, “Will you take our dog?” and I’m like, “Sure. Give me your dog.” We took the dog and we took her to the vet. I was going to keep her, but my dog and her didn’t get along. This woman had a dog, but lost it while she was on the street. She currently has this dog and it is her best friend. She sends me pictures of the dog. I show the girls on the street where the dog was, the pictures, and there’s just this little bond and community that we’ve built. When I’m having a rough day, I definitely think of how great she’s doing.

Bill Woolsey:
That’s beautiful, that’s beautiful.

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah.

Abigail Taylor:
That’s awesome. All right, so we like to do with all of our guests, we like to ask you just a series of rapid fire, just fun questions.

Deb Ellinger:
Okay, yeah.

Abigail Taylor:
I’m going to ask you those right quick here, before we wrap up. Who’s your favorite author?

Deb Ellinger:
Danielle Steel.

Abigail Taylor:
Okay.

Bill Woolsey:
That’s awesome.

Deb Ellinger:
Okay, wait, can I change quickly?

Bill Woolsey:
Yes, you can-

Deb Ellinger:
I should be more Christian, I should more Christian.

Abigail Taylor:
No, no, no, no.

Bill Woolsey:
Okay, I guess.

Deb Ellinger:
Can you say it again? Can I get it again?

Bill Woolsey:
Sure. We’ll probably do both though.

Deb Ellinger:
Okay.

Abigail Taylor:
Yeah, we’ll keep it all, but sure, okay. What’s your favorite author then?

Deb Ellinger:
Danielle Strickland.

Abigail Taylor:
Okay. All right. What’s your favorite podcast?

Deb Ellinger:
Danielle Strickland.

Abigail Taylor:
Okay. Favorite spiritual mentor?

Deb Ellinger:
Danielle Strickland.

Abigail Taylor:
Last book you read. What was the last book you read?

Deb Ellinger:
Oh, Carlos Whittaker, Kill the Spider.

Abigail Taylor:
Oh, I’ve heard of that, I’ve never read it though. All right, Kindle or Audible or physical book. What’s your preference?

Deb Ellinger:
Physical book.

Abigail Taylor:
Physical book.

Deb Ellinger:
Yeah.

Abigail Taylor:
Okay. Mac or PC?

Deb Ellinger:
Oh, Mac.

Bill Woolsey:
Thank you.

Abigail Taylor:
All right. Do you have a favorite version of the Bible? As you’ve taught Bible studies and things like that, do you have a favorite version that you-

Deb Ellinger:
I do like the NIV version, but then I compare it to the EV version too.

Abigail Taylor:
The ESV, okay.

Bill Woolsey:
Okay.

Abigail Taylor:
Yeah. All right, and socks or no socks?

Deb Ellinger:
No socks.

Bill Woolsey:
I know the answer to the next one too. Go ahead.

Abigail Taylor:
All right, and tattoos or no tattoos?

Deb Ellinger:
Lots of tattoos.

Abigail Taylor:
Okay. What’s the most recent one you’ve gotten?

Deb Ellinger:
I have a bird and cage on my left arm that is a sign of freedom from slavery.

Abigail Taylor:
That’s awesome. All right, and golf or swimming, which do you prefer?

Deb Ellinger:
Swimming.

Abigail Taylor:
Swimming, okay. All right.

Deb Ellinger:
Those are fun.

Abigail Taylor:
Well, thank you so much, Deb. It was so great to have you on the podcast this week. We just pray that Jesus continues to bless the work that you do as you keep reaching out and doing the work that he’s called you to do.

Deb Ellinger:
Thanks, guys.

Bill Woolsey:
Thank you.

Deb Ellinger:
I really appreciate you guys. Bill, I love spending time with you. Thanks for believing in us.

Bill Woolsey:
Deb, you are such an inspiration, and I just pray that those who are listening will draw that inspiration for themselves, that Jesus really does want them to take a risk and step out and do something for people that he’s laid on their hearts. Thank you for doing that, thank you for being bold. We love you and look forward to talking later.

Deb Ellinger:
I love you too. Okay, thanks, guys, so much.

Bill Woolsey:
Bye-bye.

Abigail Taylor:
All right, bye-bye.